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Template:Mergenote

I have created a template, {{mergenote}}, which is similar to {{AFDWarning}} and {{AFDNote}} but is used to notify the major contributors of an article on their talk page that there is a merge discussion taking place. Two parameters can be defined: the article name and the location of the merge discussion:

  • {{subst:mergenote | ARTICLE NAME }}
  • {{subst:mergenote | ARTICLE NAME | TALK PAGE WHERE MERGE IS BEING DISCUSSED }}

The major contributors of an article can be found using this tool by aka. Outside input on the {{mergenote}} template would be appreciated. I hope to include a mention of {{mergenote}} in this article. --Pixelface (talk) 19:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Need explanation from proposer

I see a lot of situations where the proposer puts up the appropriate merge tags at the top of the articles, but then does not initiate any discussion on the appropriate Talk page to explain why the merge is needed. Shouldn't some sort of explanation from the proposer be part of the merge process? Johnfos (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I really would be grateful for some discussion on this, please. It just seems to be common sense that the person advocating the merge should explain why it is needed, rather than leave other editors guessing. Johnfos (talk) 07:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
It is always good form to explain why any tag is added. I've deleted any number of tags for merges, splits, disputed and POV after long discussion, simply because no one can figure out why they were added. However, this is noted on the help page— look for "After proposing the merger, place your reasons on the talk page." There is more on discussion scattered throughout the page. If there is reason to think that this should be more prominent, perhaps rounding up the subject of discussion into a separate section would be appropriate. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Need help locating records of a merged page

Suppose that page X was merged into page Y months ago. Where can I find a record of the data on page X before it was merged?

(This is most important when the material on page X is severely truncated (shortened) during the merge and the reader wants to recover the lost information.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Comrade Sephiroth (talk • contribs) 02:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Page X should now be a redirect page. If you don't know the exact name, use "What links here". When you click on page X, you will be redirected to page Y. There will be a backlink at the top showing you were redirects—click that and page X will open. You can then check the page history. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 11:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
There's no process like with AfD where the outcome is clearly recorded with all the details available. If there has been a merge suggestion for an article in the past, your only hope is to search the talk page and archives. If you want to know if a page has been merged with another, you can only really do the same and look in the page history for 'merge', and look at what links here, though redirects from merges aren't highlighted or anything. The redirected page might be in Category:Redirects from merges, but it might well not be, in which case you'd have to check its page history to be sure. Perhaps we should make more of an effort to record the 'merge history' of articles, especially for major merges (or serious merge discussions). Do we even have a template one could use in such a situation, e.g. 'This page is the result of a merge between X and Y', 'Y was merged into this article on DD/MM/YY' or 'It has been suggested that X be merged with this page, but the consensus was not to merge (link to discussion)'? Richard001 (talk) 05:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding defaults

I would suggest that the {{mergeto}} tag by default (if no talk page is specified) direct to the talk page of the same article, rather than that of the article it is suggested to merge into. It seems much more likely that the relevant discussion, if any, will be on the same talk page in that case. PSWG1920 (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it. The article that it is being merged into will probably be the more 'senior' one, with more people likely to visit the talk page. You would also have to change {{mergefrom}} so that it was set to the other page's talk page, which would be similarly strange. Richard001 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Since the mergefrom page generally becomes a redirect, the mergefrom talkpage essentially becomes orphaned. If the mergeto talk page has the merge discussion, then editors can figure out the merge more readily. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 21:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Making the placement of merge templates easier

We need some automated process or bot to help setting up merge templates. This is especially so with multi-merges. A page where you could just fill in the page names and similar details hit enter, letting a bot or such do the rest, would be nice. A bot that makes sure merge proposals are symmetrical would also be good, i.e. one that adds a merge template to one page if the other has one on it. Richard001 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How?

How do i request a merge?. Mythdon (talk) 05:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussions

What are the policies/guidelines/etc. that cover merge discussions, which occur on the Talk page of one of the affected articles? In particular, I am interested in the proper procedure for closing a merge discussion. I've read Help:Merging and moving pages#Closing/archive a proposed merger (vague), as well as Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, and Template:Discussion top, but I have not found anything directly helpful.

For XfDs, the closing editor must be uninvolved and may be a non-admin when admin tools are not required to implement the decision. Some merges may require history merges, while others can be done with cut-and-paste. Should an uninvolved editor be requested at WP:EAR, WP:AN, or elsewhere, or should the merge tags and their associated categories be relied on to attract this uninvolved editor?

Is it ever acceptable for an involved editor to close a merge discussion as no consensus following an extended period (1-2 months) with no new discussion, or does this involved closing always constitute a conflict of interest, as it would in the WP:Deletion process? If it may be acceptable, what constitutes a reasonable "extended period"? Flatscan (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Mergers are generally done by someone who has an interest in the topic. Deletion requires distance, but mergers require knowledge of the subject in some manner to have an idea of what needs to be kept. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll cross-post my question once this is archived. Flatscan (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)?
I believe the question is not who actually carries out the merger but who determines whether or not there is a consensus when there is no unanimity? I believe that it's been the practice in the past to request on WP:AN that an uninvolved admin determine consensus when it is unclear. Reggie Perrin (talk) 04:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Cross-posted from Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 May 24 to Help talk:Merging and moving pages, Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

I was unable to find guidance or precedent. Is there support for adding a recommendation to request closing by an uninvolved editor at WP:EAR or WP:AN? Alternately, this may be recommended only if the closure is disputed. Flatscan (talk) 01:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Closure of a lengthy move discussion at Talk:New York was done by an uninvolved admin following a request at WP:AN. Flatscan (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I came across a discussion that implies scrutiny of closures by involved editors. I'll add the suggested recommendation if there are no objections. Flatscan (talk) 03:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

What do to with the talk page of the redirected page?

There's no instructions on what to do with the old talk page. Should it be deleted, or just left? ImpIn | (t - c) 00:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I assume that you're referring to an article that has been merged into another. If the Talk page has any useful discussion, I would place archive tags and move it to a subpage of the merged article's Talk. Flatscan (talk) 00:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I came across Template:Merged-from, which is placed on the merged article's Talk and provides links to the redirected article and its Talk, making a move unnecessary. Flatscan (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge policy

  1. Is AfD appropriate for discussing mergers, controversial or otherwise?
  2. Is there need for a formal Mergers for discussion? Would it be sufficiently subscribed?

Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Mergers at AfD

Filing an AfD for a contested merge was suggested in this archived AN/I thread and its preceding merge discussion. There has been opposition to taking this content dispute to AfD, which is not a listed dispute resolution step. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations‎ was eventually filed.—add AfD Flatscan (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I was recently involved with a disputed split/merge that was eventually nominated at AfD. Although I thought such a nomination was discouraged, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taser controversy attracted sufficient outside input and resolved the dispute. Steps preceding the nomination:

  1. Article tagging and informal merge discussion per Help:Merging and moving pages, but not the optional listing at Wikipedia:Proposed mergers
  2. Intermittent discussion over a few months
  3. RfC per DR, attracting zero outside input
  4. Suggestion of refiling RfC or seeking mediation per DR

In my opinion, AfD worked well for this example because the merge was argued on Wikipedia policy, not specific and specialized knowledge. My guess is that lack of specific interest and/or reluctance to enter an existing content dispute hurt the RfC's success.

A way of looking at AfD is that it asks this question: "Does Wikipedia need an article on this subject?" Delete and Merge/redirect both answer "no". Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: I'm not sure if taking merges to AfD should be encouraged, but I think it's a reasonable forum for at least some cases. Flatscan (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Related discussion: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 51#Articles for deletion and merging —Flatscan (talk) 03:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Mergers for discussion

Wikipedia:Proposed mergers already exists, but it is an optional step. My experience is that there is little collected guidelines regarding merge discussions, which may lead to protracted disputes over whether the relevant procedural precedent was followed. Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Copied from Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 50#Merge policy —Flatscan (talk) 01:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No guidance for direction of merges

I would think merges should prefer that the page content is merged into the page with the more detailed history, especially when there is a great disparity. Is there any existing guidance on this? There is none on the project page here. As an example, I just tagged a newly created page with just a three edit history for merger to an established page with a detailed history going back two years. This seems the obvious direction and I think most editors under similar circumstances would do likewise, choosing the new (little history) into the old (detailed history). Here's the rub: the newly created article appears to be at the better name. Assuming it is, if I want to do the merge in the history-favored direction, but then move that old article to the new article name, I won't be able to delete the new article to perform that move as that would destroy the history of the merged-from page, and the merge would then no longer comply with the GFDL. I suppose I could do a name swap...; never pretty but it would preserve both pages' histories. Anyway, any thoughts on whether merges should consider richness of page histories as a criterion for direction, or whether that or at least something about the merge direction should be added to the attached project page?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason against a history merge, such as the short and long edit histories being interleaved? A history merge would obscure what really happened, but the individual revisions would survive – I don't know if that would cause a GFDL problem. I could see history richness as a merge direction consideration, but at a low priority. Flatscan (talk) 00:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Afaik, history merges are for content that used to be on the same page that for whatever reason needs to be added back; cut and paste moves and the like. It doesn't seem logical to me to merge the histories of two pages that started independently because think about what a user scrolling through the history will find: two years in, suddenly an edit summary: "create article"; and if they look at the version they'll see a whole other article; the next edit after that is a stub tagging, and a few edits later, its back to the original article's content. It would be confusing and incongruous. Moreover, if the edits are spread over time, various versions of the two articles will be interleaved. Inspecting this merged history without means of distinguishing between the two overlapping progressions (since nothing in the history would indicate which version belongs to which sequence) invites much more severe confusion. Turning to the second part of your post, why is it a low priority criterion? Or more pertinently, what would be a higher basis to use? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. The attached page has no guidance on direction at all and I would think that issue a fundamental concern for merges so let's change the inquiry:
What criteria should be considered for choosing the direction of merges?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I would use minimize amount of work necessary. This would include, in approximate order of priority:
  • Merge into preferred name to avoid name swap.
  • Merge into article with larger scope (e.g. merging a subarticle into a section).
  • Merge in the direction that requires copying less text. This has the desirable side effect of having less text associated with the separate history of the redirected article.
If the articles are roughly equal, then history richness could be considered. Flatscan (talk) 02:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Some of your points may have merit independently, but I reject the entire premise that minimizing work is even a consideration, which you use as the underlying basis for all your criteria. We do what is best and correct for the encyclopedia and if it takes more time to do it right, then that's the procedure we adopt.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Point taken. Endorsing laziness was not my intent. Flatscan (talk) 20:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Moving forward on mergers with no votes either way?

I proposed that Kristi Yamaoka be merged with Cheerleading#Dangers of Cheerleading. I got no response aside from a comment that was more of a clarification than a vote, and it's 11 days and counting. I figured it would be controversial and posted it in the proposed section here at the time hoping to get some input, but nothing has happened from that direction either, nor does it look likely to happen. What's the next step here? MSJapan (talk) 21:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any good recommendations. Considering the five previous AfDs, renominating to AfD with suggested outcome merge/redirect is an option, but not a good one. I would normally suggest leaving a note "seeing no objections, will proceed with merge", then going ahead per WP:BOLD after another 1-2 weeks of no discussion, but here I would expect an immediate reversion citing consensus established at AfD. Flatscan (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
WP:SILENCE! II | (t - c) 22:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I think of it this way: If it's proposed for merge, the editor who makes the proposition implicitly votes for the merge unless explicitly says otherwise. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 05:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Old merge template; for proposed mergers that result in consensus against (or no consensus)

Mirroring start-oldafdfull-end, I've created start-User:Coldacid/Templates/oldmergefull-end for when a merge has been proposed, but resulted in a decision to keep the original article, or for when there is no consensus. I don't think it'll be used too much, but for articles where that happens, it's better than making someone scroll down the talk page, head to an archived talk page, or try and figure out what article was suggested for the merge.

Perhaps someone should work out how to work the template into the help article, perhaps after a move into the Template namespace and/or some protection. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 06:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can we make it that you can remove proposed merge tags if the proposer doesn't leave any comments on the talk page?

I get sick of people doing this. No explanation, just tag and leave - rst20xx (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that people have done it in the past. Still, I'd say only if the proposer doesn't respond to questions about the proposal. Sometimes the case for merging is obvious to the proposer, and he or she thinks (wrongly) it should be obvious to others. A better option would be to send a message to the person who proposed a merge, asking them to comment on the article talk page about the proposal. If they don't bother, then pull the merge tags down if nobody else is discussing it. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 03:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Protocol in mergers, how much is consensus?

OK, here's one for discussion, both on how complete consensus is and how long to leave open a merge for. On September 19th, I proposed a merger here of lycanthrope and werewolf, two articles which could easily reach 50-75 kb at FAC, and which are to all intents synonymous in all definitions I can find apart from D&D, where lycanthrope was used to mean human shapeshifters.

  • So far there are 9 supports, with 4 noting that a condition would be to mention and explain D&D usage and non-wolf shapeshifting material moved to therianthropy or shapeshifting (this is absolutely fine by me).
  • There are two opposes, both on the D&D issue, but neither have returned to clarify whether there are any other issues or whether they'd be satisfied with.

Question is, how long do we leave this open and how many counts as consensus? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Procedurally, it looks fine to close this discussion now:
  • Proper merge tags with precise link to discussion
  • 2 weeks since discussion start
  • 1 week since last non-supporting comment
My reading is that the merge is not particularly controversial, but its size requires some work to do properly. If my impression is incorrect and you expect vigorous opposition to implementing the merge, you may wish to consider additional measures:
Flatscan (talk) 03:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Could not update stat
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